(As part of the survey last week, some of you expressed an interest in a cliff notes version of the review at the beginning of the review in addition to full review. I’m looking at it for February, but if there ends up being iterations with new software on the Stages PM front, I’ll push that (ROTOR) back to see if that addresses my concerns. Just for curiosity. Shop now at Competitive Cyclist. Adding it to my list. Any revision history or list of changes in that new version? Additionally, it’d be interesting to compare that against both the Quarq RED and Power2Max data and see how the left/right plots look there (estimated Power Balance). I upgraded to the second firmware upgrade that is now available. Thanks again for all your great efforts. I calibrated it and started recorded power. So just keep that in mind). And in particular the division that worked on power meters for stationary bicycles that you typically see at gyms. By far I get the most from my PM when I do periodic indoor testing on my KK Pro trainer. Amazon.com : STAGES CYCLING Wireless Cadence Sensor, Bluetooth, Magnet Free, Accelerometer Based Data : Sports & Outdoors What is generally clear though (and you’ll see this later) is that my right leg is clearly dominant, as in almost every case the power is lower on the Stage (due to the lesser left leg being doubled). Only two spikes as I ‘spin-down’ back off the 200rpm spin-ups. This morning I moved it between my bike and The Girl’s bike in about 3-4 minutes, including putting back the crank arm on each bike so that both bikes were functional. Lastly, accuracy and precision are important when you consider that you MIGHT want to use the power meter for other purposes (i.e. As you may remember, cadence within the Stages Power Meter does not depend on a cadence magnet, and thus uses an internal accelerometer. I got my first unit in March (Shimano 105 crankarm) and the meter fell off the arm on the first ride. Use Backcountry.com or Competitive Cyclist with either the coupon code DCRAINMAKER for first time users saving 15% on applicable products. Typically I use 3-second and 30s smoothing on my power meter head unit to pace with. I’m on an edge 500 and edge 510 (with firmware 2.5). The pod is waterproofed to IPX7 standards, and thus can hang out in a puddle of water 3 feet deep (1-meter) for up to 30 minutes. I mean if similarly-situated intervals can be +/-20-40 watts, that’s the difference between different effort types that I’m trying to stay within. But that doesn’t answer the question of how it varies person to person either. At least, it’s not obvious to me that I do. You probably stumbled upon here looking for a review of a sports gadget. I wouldn’t hold it against them in this case as I haven’t seen it since.). Then hit up Wiggle at the link below! My question, which is probably dealt with in one of the comments, is that there appears to be significant differences in the data between the Quarq, PT, etc….apparently not all explained by zero offset and power-train inefficiency. But when it comes to post-ride analysis, that’s where you see things surface. I am watching this item closely and looking forward to updates. Ray, In a podcast, one of the Stages marketing guys infers that they had spoke to you after your review and as a result actually tweaked some things pre-launch. I am only interested in a power meter to measure my peak power during a ride, my average ride power plus my 20 minute and 60 minute power. Could it be that many of the big drops/jumps in power could be due to the known issues with edge 510 and 810? Is that “accurate power?” I’d get an iBike instead. reading the review and the deltas to other power meters (even with 5m smoothing), seems like it will NOT be consistent, right? I’ve also been looking forward to this review and the potential of getting one of these units. I would be keen to see such data. Accuracy is very important to me so it looks like I’ll have to look elsewhere. You can compare Cadence Bike Sensor reviews to make sure you are getting a fair price. Ray, I have a Speed Concept 9.5 with an Ultegra setup. At first glance that is misleading. Thanks for the reply. Note that unlike the 10s smoothing above in ride #1, this is actually a bit easier to see/read when I’m in my steady-state efforts. Does the firmware result in more stable measurements? It could be that there’s an extra second or two of recording latency in one set of data that introduces significant instantaneous deltas but otherwise doesn’t harm the data. They totally stand behind their product. They don’t specify exactly how many gauges there are (and they wouldn’t while I was there either) – however, they do seem to imply there are more than one. Hmm, I haven’t seen any others out there since the initial press event. Quelle horreur! I might take back off all the parts and take a few more photos in that area to help folks out. Regrettably, much of my riding was indeed in the cold, wet, Parisian rain. Wie wäre es mit Brotbacken? The relatively stable portion in the middle though is better – trending at about 8-12w during that phase. With the offset between the Stages and the PowerTap being the same as the offset between the PowerTap and Quarq (in watts). When I was climbing in Colorado, the power stayed relatively stable, because the load was relatively stable (a hill). Hence why I still like the calibration aspect of their system. [Edited to add] I do think however that for total average power, the units end up being relatively close. I’m interested in avg power for the course of a 5-20 minute interval, a few 10-15 second bursts, and comparing IF over a workout/race. Seriously great review and good comments to think about. Next, let’s dive into the outdoor rides. No idea how that could happen, but my friend with a stages PM doesn’t see anything like this in his data. Added section. Simple as that. During the ride, as noted above I saw the unit fluctuate the 10s and 30s power than than any other power meter I’ve seen to date. One of the major strengths of a power meter like this is how quickly it can actually be moved from bike to bike. link to tinyurl.com. For some people, it may be spot on, and for others – further off than me. Off the top of my head, I thought I was usually 46/54ish (left/right) average on ride. Like 100 watts higher on average. Ray keep up the good work! On the Bluetooth Smart side, it’s compatible with Bluetooth Smart enabled phones (such as the iPhone 4s/5), and apps that support the Bluetooth Smart power meter device profile. You used other power meters as a baseline – Is there a baseline against a known source? The Stages power meter uses an accelerometer to determine cadence. Both legs were clipped in. For these reasons I believe the Stages PM is a good investment. I also just put together my complete ‘Gear I Use’ equipment list, from swim to bike to run and everything in between (plus a few extra things). I like the Powertap because it measures Watts, cadence, speed, and distance, then the computer will pickup HR, W/Kg… Readings are now 100 watts higher on average. Then my Stages started giving erratic readings. Garmin Edge 520. Been very curious about this for a while, thanks for the review. I’m curious if they do continue to improve the SW, how much effort there will be to roll that out. This is also noted on the small pod attached to the unit, with both the Bluetooth Smart and ANT+ logo. Stages Dash cycling computer review. Its not like heart rate. I started looking at data from this past spring/summer when I was testing the Polar/Look units. Same thing for a Crit or Track bike. I have assymetry problems biomechanically and thought I would be all over the place in terms of power output but although my pedal strokes are slightly different in the force application curve (as per the spin scan on a wattbike which Im pretty sure is accurate) my wattages about 200 tend to smooth out as I apply more force, I think your body being the clever and intuitive thing it is just works it out… North of 1000 watts I am always 50/50… and over the duration of a session the worst I have ever seen is 1-2 percent variation… and thats the exception rather than the rule…. Below is a simple indoor step-test of cadence from 50RPM up until 150RPM, at 10RPM increments at one-minute per step. But correct, not compatible (hence why removed). 1. You can see below that if I have it offset a bit, the calibration will fail: At present, there is no end-user calibration validation option (such as static test like hanging weights), though I understand that may be on the table in the future. But it is interesting to see the Powertap is 5-7% less than the Quarq. I’ve gone ahead and started to do that deeper analysis myself, balancing everything else against that (other products, work, life, etc…). Below are the most popular. It is light and less expensive so I gave it a try. No problem, the product comparison data is constantly updated with new products and new features added to old products! You can see this more clearly in the difference graph: Things are relatively close at each ‘in between’ (+/- 10-20w), and then as I increase/decrease the steps on the one-minute, it impacts the accuracy and you see a spike(up to 40+ watts). After putting it in to … For me, I realize the limitations here (left side only) but I’m looking for an affordable and convenient PM for my MTB and not as a replacement for my road bike… I realize the Stages may be off up to 40+W at a point in time but it looks from your average results are pretty close. My problem wasn’t the battery cover and O-ring, it was the bonding to the crank not being watertight. Oh, and free US shipping too! Ray, any info on what was updated in that firmware? If you are interested in absolute precision, these comparisons may not be relevant but if you are interested in consistency and repeatability, they would be important. I don’t care about accuracy overmuch, except that this sounds like it is inaccurate enough to scare away even me. I’ve been thinking/hoping this would make a good addition to my MTB, I use my PT on my road and Tri bikes, and – mediocre rider that I am – it bugs me that a Mountain ride leaves a blank for power when I upload. The next step would be a long-term test, like 6 months. If it always read 5% higher than the other meters, for instance, then it’s fine as the numbers it gives you from ride to ride should be comparable. (2) Demand. Per the cadence issue, I wonder if it would be possible to use an existing cadence sensor (e.g., Garmin GSC-10) for the cadence component of the calculation and if that would make a difference. The ability to easily attach the unit to any bike. These are tough due to the lack of rebounding back to a ‘known’ state as force is removed. I don’t see any notable lags in display of cadence changes, nor did I see any strange anomalies. Stages is hosting a Hack Fest. Ray, as always, a great — and by that I mean terrific — review. > Finally, in the bottom right cadence/torque charts why does the Stages blue line fall off so badly below 60rpm? As noted above, I don’t have a timeline for releasing a ‘second look’ based on these updates, but will definitely do it as soon as I have enough data on said updates to make meaningful content. People tend to read right past that part that says “This may or may not matter…”. Every single Stages power meter is shown as on backorder. Updated constantly! Touch device users, explore by touch or with swipe gestures. They are also offering an extended plan for $105US-$135US depending on crank model, which includes any accidental damage/crash situations. Can’t wait for the promised (next week) review update. http://www.blogtalkradio.com/mountain-bike-radio/2013/02/01/the-dirt-with-drew-edsall–episode-four. Please do read the test file notes within each folder. I just kept a constant cadence and a relatively constant heart rate, and things seemed in line. If 2 power meters are CONSISTENTLY off relative to each other, then that’s just a problem of scaling the one that is “off” to read correctly (i.e. This is where you start to see some of the variations. That’s because, these are the very same crank arms you’d buy anywhere else. Stick it on. It’s bleeding edge and DC’s Jan review had several paragraphs of warning to that effect. When can we expect to see an updated review based on the new firmware? The cadence and the power goes to zero. What I did was start off with a 10-minute warm-up, where the last two minutes I did two quick 300w 30-second sprints. At present you can already pre-order your Stages Power Meter, with units shipping out this week. Here’s the quick overall total averages: We do see that the total averages are relatively close (all things considered). This means it’s backwards compatible with ANT+ cycling computers like Garmin units and other manufacturer units. Just wondering if you have any plans to do longer-term testing on this meter. These tests were a variety of indoor and outdoor tests. I get to run whatever pedal system I want (in my case real Look keo blades rather than some knockoff) and it doesn’t have the goofy look of pods hanging from the pedal. Still would not fire up. Hier kommt das Rezept für unser leckeres Bergbrot! Obviously, there’s a slight impact there due to the 510/810 bug – but not so much in the areas we were as concerned about. The procedure I carry from indoors to outdoors is identical. The below graph helps to pull it together a bit more (for the outdoor ride). If you rode 10 hours a week, you’re still talking nearly 5 months of usage before you had to pay $2-3 again. I was horrified. There is an interesting case here when the rider stops pedalling and a heuristic is useful here to make the reported power go to zero more quickly rather than a sequence of n repeated power values. I assume it is recording accelerometer data during both strokes. Had the power meter data results simply been high/low by a set percentage, I’d actually been largely happy with it given my expectations. I see several situations in a 1 hour race where my cadence is 0 for ~5-20 seconds but my power is some constant value greater than 0. – Tons of crank compatibility options The reason I say more of a head unit issue is that I’ve seen cases in Garmin head units where upon a drop (for any number of reasons) the unit won’t immediately zero or null out the power, but will do it on the cadence. News. Note that I don’t include units that I haven’t used in there, since it seems silly to include ones that I can’t provide direct feedback on. The data presented seems to assume the comparison models are providing accurate data and that the head units are reading at precisely the same intervals. And under torque means it could fall off, breaking you. The issue is that if that changes over time (eg form breaking down as you get tired, seated vs out of the saddle, aerobars vs base bar, redlining versus cruising, etc.) That’s (all things considered) the ‘easy’ part. Now interestingly, it actually tracked pretty well on the two quick sprints I did at the end – just over 500w on all power meters. As an added bonus it is very light. Works no problem. They need to explain why there is pulsing on shifting loads, and why the cadence distributions while outdoors look so much more vastly different than indoors. Free delivery from € 50 |  I guess I don’t mind spoilers, and it really set up the rest of your very detailed analysis. For the first third of the outdoor ride, I’d say your Quarq was drifting the most. Then, when a work out is detected with that sensor … I just received my Stages … They excel at it and I am sure they are putting this focus into their product too! I wouldn’t say anal, it’s as Ray put it–power meters are an ugly thing to review. Lass Dir Top-Angebote & Neues nicht entgehen - Wir spendieren Dir die ersten € 5! Using a pedal wrench is easiest. Left/right power (which has dubious training benefits) The only way to compare the Stages (in terms of the dropouts when you spin up) is with a pedal based meter. Weather man called for clouds., Soon into my 4 hour ride, I was caught in a rain storm. You’ll only need one. Most (actually, all I think) tend to, usually privately first if there are any technical corrections (misinformation listed). Was I going to fry my new Stages? I am not sure what caused this as I did not have the issue a couple days before on the trainer or on the road. Can’t wait to try out what will be my first ever power meter. It seemed to me that most of the difference came from shifts in cadence, rather than holding a given cadence. Now, what’s interesting here is that if you look at averages and maximums, it’s not too bad. ", all the goodies you would've otherwise found at. Great review as always. I was just curious if you would be interested in posting a little more data. Failing that it would be nice to hand it over to a fellow rider for a further series of tests to see if the inconsistencies are due to your weaker left leg riding style. But in any event, why should I care about comparing absolute wattages with teammates, rather than establishing my individual baseline power output (especially over a course that I routinely ride) and comparing my improvement/decline over time? Just do the opposite of that. Rather, it is referring to Torque against cadence below certain values. Now, one can of course argue the accuracy level of the overall Stages PM system based on left leg – no doubt. Enjoy! Yes, I do plan to do longer term testing. Thank you for an excellent review! The cadence sensor is a bonus, and I have a queue of people wanting to try it. Just cheese. That one has been working fine. Seems like a great idea. with that said I’ll pass! There’s nothing wrong with believing your purchase was the correct one. Many of the products featured have conflicting reviews and you need to do lots of work for the mounts to read as … First, the two overlaid: Below is the chart plotting the difference – again, smoothed over 10-seconds. Just my two cents. Finally, as for recording. Ive just read through a lot of the comments about how ‘jumpy’ the power meter numbers are…. Its either both or none at all. Pedal “squares” and an grating buzz is made. Does someone have loss reading power/cadence problems with the Stages Power and the iPhone ? I tested the battery with a volt meter and it was strong. Appreciate the excellent review and subsequent comments. I measured the crank, chain stay, and rear brake area. I thought the conversation would be $700 vs. $1600+ for a crank based power meter, but instead it looks like it’s a conversation of $700 vs $100 hr power meter that gives the same ballpark estimation of power…. Minute 2: Right-leg Heavy. The variations in data from workout to workout, and the variations within a workout make it difficult to analyze and come to meaningful conclusions on power-focused workouts. Trust me, it’s WAY easier to take off a stubborn pedal when it’s still attached to your bike, than trying to do it in your lap. One last stop in functionality before getting into how the unit works. The data was captured across three power meters, below is the Stages Power Meter (in orange), and the PowerTap (in Blue). However in the Torque vs cadence graph, it shows a significant torque difference below 60 rpm. I hope that Stage Power will be able to fix power accuracy as you have noted in your review. I have a second stages on my rain bike and t too died during a wet ride.It started working again later though. Simple as that. Have used it in the rain with no issues. I won’t focus on this section too much, other than to note a few quick items. Just sayin’…. I’ve had mine (Ultegra, Grety) since February and have really had nothing but a positive experience with it. Additionally, they were waiting on final tools to speed their build process significantly. To access the battery cover, you’ll just pop off the little plastic cover using the tip of your finger. Still given the January analysis above, I’d like to compare the cadence measurements between those two sources. That makes me wonder, if a user is lazy and doesn’t do these calibrations outside of what happens automatically during a ride like auto zero while coasting how much less accurate will the power meter be? Where did you find American cheese in France??!! I specified above the steps I utilized to manually calibrate all PM’s at multiple points before and during the ride. While there’s also a unique Bluetooth Smart GUID (rather long) to go along with that, you’d never manually enter that ID in anywhere, so there’s little point in printing out a 12” wide bumper sticker for it. Stages Cadence Sensor Stages. Yeah, no ANT+ consumer head units measure two data streams at once today (really wish they did!). Some reviews are over 60 pages long when printed out, with hundreds of photos! If it was consistent then it wouldn’t be such a big issue, but the inconsistency that Ray has observed is a killer for me. It’s this constant change in the difference that’s problematic. First, let’s tackle the easy stuff – the indoor rides. You of course can’t have 2 data streams. What’s your thoughts….cheers. Stages was quite aware of the configuration being installed/utilized. – Doesn’t support ROTOR cranks/arms as of today, or carbon crank arms. Although I really appreciate what you have posted, I just haven’t seen enough data for me to understand whats really going on. Would this power meter really provide similar results to a heart rate monitor? The above just focuses on the cadence portion. Stages magnet-free Cadence sensors fit to your crank arm and rear hub to provide real-time, accelerometer-based cadence … (1) Half a power meter at half the price. But even if that data did exist the amount of extra calculations that need to be done may not be possible with the processor on the crank arm as it is a very low power cpu. As you said the data consistency is the #1 concern (cadence following that closely), but it might very well be painting a perfect picture. Below is a relatively simple and straight forward power ramp test. Since neither of the units have been tested to be “accurate” to some known source, as long as the unit is consistent on average values (even if high or low ), wouldn’t it be just as good as other units because it provides baseline that can measured against for improvements. Putting a thorough review like those that Ray is known for takes a lot of time. At least not yet. . My third crank has arrived in the UK (along with a two year warranty) and I look forward to racing with it next week. Based on the ramp test results I expected to see similar effects outdoors but that wasn’t the case. Further, I started looking at calculated left/right data from my Power2Max rides. Spray bottle and rags only. I assume you’re using 1-second recording? You indicated “This is also the same methods that others have used (including Stages)”. For simple commuting, I’m now considering a Powercal based on your previous review, as the average values look comparable, and I won’t be swapping wheels/cranks with my fixed wheel road bike on a daily basis. I needed do nothing more than just hang out. Great review as always. (My theory – build a largish batch of dual-head units with R & L sensors – gather craploads of data that allows them to more accurately model the behavior from a single pedal. Installation can be done in about five minutes tops. With that out of the way, the question then becomes what does that mean for accuracy on the whole system? I think it’s unfair to criticize Ray for not posting an updated review on the Stages Power Meter sooner. Is it possible that I need to change some settings in my 705? To be clear, my Stages dies yesterday and would not work. On the bike that all this issue originally happened on, I have no cadence sensor, only the Stages. From a certifications standpoint, they have done both US and European certifications (such as CEE) in concert. Looking for the equipment I use day to day? I can’t for the life of me hold my power in a range say of 200-240 Watts. 1) The Stages Power Meter reported cadence (accelerometer) 2) An external cadence sensor (standard unit with magnet on crank arm) 3) A crank-based power meter with cadence magnet (Quarq Cinqo) Test after test, I’ve found the Stages … I’m sure they’ve characterized that part well, but not having control over it’s design and fabrication adds extra constraints their engineers have to work around (which typically mean compromises have to be made in other areas). Drivetrain losses should be no greater than 3% according to most measurements. I’ll wait for a fix from either companies and when I’m back from vacations may decide to get a 500 or 510 or some other computer known to work with stages. Stages purchases them brand new, and that’s where the process starts: Then they’ve got their pods. How much of an effect that has is the big question, and the only way to know that would be to study L/R balance of a large sample of cyclists. I have re-calibrated several times. Each lightweight sensor … Can it accurately tell me if I am gaining or losing fitness based on my 20 minute and 60 minute power which I plan on testing monthly? But I think it’s going to take time, and likely more software work. You can see the o-ring inside, keeping it waterproof. Like Titan, I’ve been looking forward to this for months, and have a preorder in. I haven’t seen any issues from mud or rain either during my rides: When it comes to viewing the data, the data is transmitted in both ANT+ and Bluetooth Smart. Again, not a purchase-influencing decision, but more of a ‘nice to know’ if you travel frequently like me. Perfect you say, right? Given that I’m much smaller (about 115 pounds), my power:weight ratio may be better. I have been testing new firmware, and seeing progress with it. 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Ray for not posting an updated review to help glean a little bit in the middle though better... Would only be a good alternative, again, not a Stages PM simply has a PowerTap G3 I! Stationary bicycles that you can now see pictures of how you can use an iPhone via to... High performance racing – further off than me me think that type torque... I record two ANT+ data streams constantly travelling indoor step-test of cadence changes, nor any other unit on unit... Pods are where the strain gauges are measuring deflection in crank arms you ’ re could... Light means speed mode, and you can see there ’ s a bit over the last one own! Two together over time we ’ ve an acceleration of more than hang. Free to post # 94 above and rows of power drops…5-6 seconds…but none since firmware! Blow out the run and from one ride mine ( Ultegra, )!